Need help with Aerobatics

[liquid_rockface]

Hi all

I've been flying in Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 for some time now, and every now and again I try some aerobatics, but I'm never very successful. Therefore I have some questions for anybody who can help me (maybe Lawndart for one?) and help clear up some of the problems.

First off, I find the easiest plane to do aerobatics in is of course the Extra 200S which comes with the game.

1. If I try doing a loop, I almost always end up with a next to nothing airspeed at the top of the loop, doesn't matter what speed I start at. I've also tried pulling back more and pulling back less, but that doesn't seem to help much. What am I doing like 30 knots at the top of my loops, I can't control the plane like that!

2. I tried doing a knife edge. Like suggested on some websites I started it at a high speed (around 150 knots), flipped onto a wing and applied opposite rudder. Now, even when I manage to co-ordinate all that, my plane drops like a BOMB. I mean, serious sideslipping. My rate of climb/descent indicator drops off the charts and I lose like 1000 feet in 10 seconds. Of course, after about 5 seconds the manoeuver is almost uncontrollable too....what could I be doing wrong??

3. The same goes for the slow roll, and the four point turn. Every time I'm on my side I drop a lot of altitude, and my nose doesn't stay very well on the horizon.

I think that's about all my questions for now. Any other tips would also be appreciated, or maybe if there's a more accurate aerobatic plane model for FS2004 on the internet which I can download, that would also be good. Is the Extra modelled reasonably well?

I see the guys in the Virtual Thunderbirds (and I assume the real Thunderbirds too!) doing perfect knife edges, and slow rolls and loops and things, and I just can't work out how. Does it really help a lot to have a fast jet?

Oh and landing the Extra can be a nightmare. It always bounces after I touch down, no matter how slowly I try to touch down. And it often yaws wayyyy off to the side, on take off and on landing. Even with no wind....

Thanks in advance!! :smile:

[Rowdy]

I don't have a problem doing a loop with the extra 200 in FSX. Never tryed FS2004 sorry to hear you can't pull a loop with it. Your loops may be too big.
Did you try smaller loops?

I had problems with some sims where your speed will bleed very fast in a turn and evan heading twords earth?. I won't name any names but a lot of you may have the game. I give you a hint the series starts with a W. What I'm trying to say is it's not always the pilots falt but the game's. You may have to make tweaks to some files or what have you. Again I never tryed FS2004 so I cant help more than what I told you already.

[zaGURUinzaSKY]

First off, I find the easiest plane to do aerobatics in is of course the Extra 200S which comes with the game.
That's the extra 300 not 200 ;-) but not important..


1. If I try doing a loop, I almost always end up with a next to nothing airspeed at the top of the loop, doesn't matter what speed I start at. I've also tried pulling back more and pulling back less, but that doesn't seem to help much. What am I doing like 30 knots at the top of my loops, I can't control the plane like that!
Entry speed is around 150/160 kts but remember to reduce the fuel, no aerobatics with 100% fuel, I use 25 to 30 %, start with front wind. you can do a loop with 2/3 of throttle. Try to pull up to 4 G before the second quarter of the loop. Coordinate with the rudder (check the ball or check your six to see how much the tail move on the side when you apply some pull.



2. I tried doing a knife edge. Like suggested on some websites I started it at a high speed (around 150 knots), flipped onto a wing and applied opposite rudder. Now, even when I manage to co-ordinate all that, my plane drops like a BOMB. I mean, serious sideslipping. My rate of climb/descent indicator drops off the charts and I lose like 1000 feet in 10 seconds. Of course, after about 5 seconds the manoeuver is almost uncontrollable too....what could I be doing wrong??
Default EXTRA do not perform knife edge. Try to get this aircraft if you want to do some good aerobatics (the Christen Eagle here http://www.liclassics.com/aircraft.htm get it from flightsim.com download page)


3.The same goes for the slow roll, and the four point turn. Every time I'm on my side I drop a lot of altitude, and my nose doesn't stay very well on the horizon.Try to coordinate the roll with the rudder instead of apllying a lot of opposite rudder. It works better, right aileron with a bit of right rudder.. not really a knife edge but you won't dive as a rock.


I think that's about all my questions for now. Any other tips would also be appreciated, or maybe if there's a more accurate aerobatic plane model for FS2004 on the internet which I can download, that would also be good. Is the Extra modelled reasonably well?No it's not, try the Christe Eagle linked above.. and also try to reduce the pitch and rudder sensitivity from 100% to 75/80% (it's just less movement of the moving parts of the aircraft).


I see the guys in the Virtual Thunderbirds (and I assume the real Thunderbirds too!) doing perfect knife edges, and slow rolls and loops and things, and I just can't work out how. Does it really help a lot to have a fast jet?
They use LockOn (same for us at Illusion Aerobatic Team), better flight model for jet aerobatic and yes, the jet engine helps a lot in knife edge, it's almost all about speed.


Oh and landing the Extra can be a nightmare. It always bounces after I touch down, no matter how slowly I try to touch down. And it often yaws wayyyy off to the side, on take off and on landing. Even with no wind....
Do not touchdown faster that 50kt and it'll land softly as a cessna... touchdown with positive attitude, I use 2 to 4° AOA (angle of attack). Just make sure that you're not going to touch the runway with tailwheel first.. and you gotta have levelled wings.. when you throttle back to idle , do it sloooowly... and ready to coordinate with left rudder.


Have fun ;-)

[zaGURUinzaSKY]

oh I forgot, if you want a better extra take this http://www.flightfactory-simulations.com/download_counters/extra_dl_count_inc.php?file=http://www.flightfactory-simulations.com/FreewareFiles/Extra300L/FFS_Extra_300L_MSFS2004.zip
Is a bit better and nicer.

[liquid_rockface]

Wow thanks a ton for all that! Positive rep inbound! I've been landing the extra at about 70 knots, which probably explains the bad landings.

I'm downloading the Christen Eagle now.

Wow great tip about the fuel. I never thought about that, and it makes perfect sense!!

[Cobra]

There are two ways to land a tail dragger:

Two wheeler or three pointer.

Two wheeler is where you land a little faster and land only on the mains and this is where most people will bounce as you have a little bit of speed and are still creating lift. A tip I was taught when getting my tail dragger endorsement was to give a little push forward a millisecond just before you touched down. (something you would NEVER normally do when landing a tricycle geared plane and felt very terrible the first time I had to try it!) What this does is it lifts the tail up which kills the lift on the main wings, making it stick to the ground. I have tried this in MSFS and it works in it too. The biggest problem is timing ... too early or too high from the ground and u hit hard and will bounce anyhow, so you really need to learn the landing attitude and height from the ground.

The other landing which is probably a little easier is the three pointer. To land in a three pointer you come in a little slower and hold it off the ground till you are in an attitude where all three wheels touch down at the same time. This is usually quite slow and close to the stall speed which means when you touch down you aren't producing much lift and it will also stick ot the ground. Problems here are speed control and attitude. Too fast and you will float down the runway a long way till you bleed the spped to land in the three point attitude, and too slow and you will land on the rear wheel which aren't usually very strong.

Its a real challenge but very rewarding when you can pull it off.

:smile:

[Bogusheadbox]

Off topic slightly on the "numbers" of each different aircraft. There is one thing to consider.

MSFS X uses a table system To define its flying envelope. This creates quite realistic flying whilst in nominal parameters, but unfortunatley causes quite erratic and obscure handling in/around/near the stall. It has been quite freely documented from many type rated flyers that their represented aircraft do not handle in these conditions in game as they do in real life. This will be more noticeable when performing aerobatics as you will be performing much more frequently around the performance envelope of the craft.

One thing that i have noticed (which will also affect in game aerobatics) is the lack of propper engine torque on the airframe. I think it is undermodelled IMO. E.g. Very little or no body roll when stationary on the ground and application of throttle.

If you are interested in the performance and handling of a real craft in aerobatics and have no clue (like me). One thing i would recommend doing is a hands on aerobatic flight with a reputable company such as Ultimate High at Kemble in the UK.

The flying is 100% hands on (The instructor performes the manouver - you follow through on the controls and note the "numbers", then you take control and <try> to recreate the manouver). The instructors are current or ex military and will push you as hard or as gentle as you want.

Just from that i received a great appreciation and a basic understanding of the control, forces, Situational awareness that you may encounter in aerobatic flight. Well worth the money IMO.

P.s. the parachute is neither comfortable nor flattering when giving a demonstration to the days flight attendees?!