E&E

[ruprecht]

Haole, are there any unclassified details you can share with us about the procedures a downed pilot follows when conducting escape and evasion in enemy territory? e.g. how does he make contact with SAR, what are the SOPs for E&E, etc.
Ta, Rup

[Buckshot]

Keep ya head down and run like hell ? :wink2:

[Wipsnake]

Hide and eat heaps of nuts and berrys :bigsmile:

[SUBS17]

Theres a few good books to read on this subject:

Bravo 2 zero by Andy McNab
The One that got away by Chris Ryan (He is the record holder E&E Iraq to Syria)
Soldier 5 (Written by the Kiwi from Bravo 2 zero)

All 3 books are about the one incident involving 8 SAS guys in Iraq who get compromised and hunted down by Iraqs Army. They differ from each other in a few areas, appearantly a SAS RSM went into Iraq and investigated the incident and has also written a book. BTW body count Iraq 3 + 4 captured SAS 200+ and 1 who got away.
cheers
Subs

[SUBS17]

One other thing, the best example of E&E is what Chris Ryan did, he did everything text book. Which is why he got away the second half of the team hijacked a taxi and tried to get through a city to the Syrian border. They only got as far as the first roadblock though and wound up OTR near a city.(OTR = On The Run) From there they all got captured except for a couple who died (1 from hypothermia and the other was shot) Both Bravo 2 Zero and The One That Got Away are movies. Bravo 2 Zero stars Sean Bean (Lord of the Rings) and its a good movie.
cheers
Subs

[Haole]

Haole, are there any unclassified details you can share with us about the procedures a downed pilot follows when conducting escape and evasion in enemy territory? e.g. how does he make contact with SAR, what are the SOPs for E&E, etc.
Ta, Rup
Sorry ruprecht,

I can only suggest that you read the books that were mentioned above. I have never read them, so I dont know about the accuracy of each. I just cant get in to any E & E discussions. Sorry about that!
Cheers!

[ruprecht]

Fair enough, no harm no foul.

[LaWMaN]

Sorry ruprecht,

I can only suggest that you read the books that were mentioned above. I have never read them, so I dont know about the accuracy of each. I just cant get in to any E & E discussions. Sorry about that!
Cheers!If you ever go down over Perth Western Australia you can hide out at my place, we have room, and the wife is a great cook. You can park the F16 in the carport and put the dog on guard duty. he he

[Stuntie]

If you look at picture of US jets from OIF you will often see a flag in the windshield area whilst they are getting strapped in. It's there for two things.

1) Helping to identify youself during extraction - A US flag say who you are, and the red stripes are easily seen as the human eye is attuned to see red.

2) It has several gold coins stiched into it.
Gold can buy the services needed to get you out of the danger zone.
(or buy a few beers in the local pub if you make it out on your own...).

I also know that RAF pilots get issued with a money belt on combat ops.
Local currency, dollars and gold coins.

It also explains why the locals like to help search for downed airmen...

[Haole]

If you look at picture of US jets from OIF you will often see a flag in the windshield area whilst they are getting strapped in. It's there for two things.

1) Helping to identify youself during extraction - A US flag say who you are, and the red stripes are easily seen as the human eye is attuned to see red.

2) It has several gold coins stiched into it.
Gold can buy the services needed to get you out of the danger zone.
(or buy a few beers in the local pub if you make it out on your own...).

I also know that RAF pilots get issued with a money belt on combat ops.
Local currency, dollars and gold coins.

It also explains why the locals like to help search for downed airmen...
:confused2:confused:
Just curious...where did you hear that part about the gold coins in the flag?
I have never heard of such a thing. We do carry something called a blood chit, but it is basically a piece of paper.
The flags in the cockpits were just flags we carried to show our pride in our country. We also carried them to give away as gifts when we returned. I flew bags of flags on each sortie to give to friends and family when I got back. I still need to hand those out!!!:doh:
Just didnt want anyone here to be confused and think that we are carrying gold coins in our jets. Not USAF pilots at least:bigsmile:
Hope this cleared any questions up. I'm not questioning your RAF info though. I have no clue as to what they carry.
CHEERS!

[SUBS17]

SAS and RAF pilots carried gold coins (about 1000 pounds sterling){in a money belt} as well as local currency E&E map and a letter saying if they are helped there will be a reward.

cheers
Subs

[Sun Stealer]

Not to mention a deckchair and flask of tea. :smile:

.

[SUBS17]

The best Pilot E&E is the story of BAT 21, and I don't mean the BS crap hollywood movie. In the book they used most of the Air assets in Vietnam to recover this guy who just happened to end up right next to the NVAs main supply route. They dropped mines all around him to keep the NVA out and worked out that he was an eccentric golfer who had memorised every compass bearing to every hole on his favourite golf courses(Navigators:wacko: ) thanks to his wife and best friend.

So while all this is happeneing the NVA is still using the MSR to move its equipment. And in the meantime to keep himself buisy he acted as an FAC and called Air Strikes everytime he saw a target of opportunity. There were alot of targets and he destroyed alot of NVA and equipment. The NVA were listening in on the radio, so they used golf course and hole bearings to get him out of the mine field and rescue him. e.g. mirramar hole 2 to hole 3 50m etc. The book is alot better than the movie, they changed the story to fit the movie.
cheers
Subs

[Spyder-F16]

Watching Discovery Wings, from what ive seen, pilots are trained to hide themselves in the area well after ejection.

Usually the SAR PaveHawks or Pavelows are scrambled when a pilot is downed, to the bullseye coordinate given by the pilot's wingman, or the pilot himself if he has time to do so before bailing. The SAR team tries to get in there as fast as possible because, when a jet is downed, BOTH enemy and friendly are going to be looking for him/her.

[Haole]

Watching Discovery Wings, from what ive seen, pilots are trained to hide themselves in the area well after ejection.

Usually the SAR PaveHawks or Pavelows are scrambled when a pilot is downed, to the bullseye coordinate given by the pilot's wingman, or the pilot himself if he has time to do so before bailing. The SAR team tries to get in there as fast as possible because, when a jet is downed, BOTH enemy and friendly are going to be looking for him/her.
Not a situation that I ever care to be in! But if it happens I feel very confident about getting out due to the great training I received.
:beer:

[Marvin157th]

SUB17,

Those are great titles for sure, read them all. However, I think they are a little different with regards to pilot E&Es. Hell even the SAS did not have much of a plan for E&E besides avoiding enemy and tabbing to Syria. Had their radio equipment worked, they could have easily called for a pick up several miles from their location in a few hours. Instead they were forced to move north serveral hundred miles. IMO I don't think Andy's team did anything wrong, the weather was giong to kill them, and I would have done the same thing myself! ;)

When pilots eject they have a 9mm or .38 a small survival vest, and no where near the training like SAS do! Hell these guys ran down a small Iraqi mech infantry platoon, and out ran a whole battalion! If that were a pilot, (sorry Haole) I'm sure he would have been captured.

I never took any pilot E&E training of course, but from what I seen around here, it looks to me they learn survival, detection, and basic field craft.

[Stuntie]

:confused2:confused:
Just curious...where did you hear that part about the gold coins in the flag?
I have never heard of such a thing. We do carry something called a blood chit, but it is basically a piece of paper.
The flags in the cockpits were just flags we carried to show our pride in our country. We also carried them to give away as gifts when we returned. I flew bags of flags on each sortie to give to friends and family when I got back. I still need to hand those out!!!:doh:
Just didnt want anyone here to be confused and think that we are carrying gold coins in our jets. Not USAF pilots at least:bigsmile:
Hope this cleared any questions up. I'm not questioning your RAF info though. I have no clue as to what they carry.
CHEERS!Hiya Haole,

Steve Davies talks about it in his book "F-15C/E Eagle units of Operation Iraqi Freedom" published recently by Osprey.

He talks about them having Squadron coins taped into the flag (not sewn - my mistake).
Each Flag/Coin set has it's own logbook to record who has it, and what combat missions it's been on.
They are refered to as RMO's (Round metal objects).

He doesn't specifiy them as gold (my mistake, I just assumed that) , but gold or precious metal coins are far more likely than normal coinage. Gold being a good choice as it is instantly recognizable. And I have heard of RAF pilots getting precious metal coins in a survival money belt over Iraq and Bosnia.
I can't remember where I read it, but I'll try and dig it out.

During OIF a F-15E, pilot Capt. Eric "Boot" Das and WSO Maj. William "Salty" Watkins were killed when their jet hit the ground possibly due to AAA.
One of the RMO's was found in the wreckage, and it is understood that the RMO and it's Log book were presented to "Salty's" family.
(A tragic loss of two brave men.)

[SUBS17]

SUB17,

Those are great titles for sure, read them all. However, I think they are a little different with regards to pilot E&Es. Hell even the SAS did not have much of a plan for E&E besides avoiding enemy and tabbing to Syria. Had their radio equipment worked, they could have easily called for a pick up several miles from their location in a few hours. Instead they were forced to move north serveral hundred miles. IMO I don't think Andy's team did anything wrong, the weather was giong to kill them, and I would have done the same thing myself! ;)

When pilots eject they have a 9mm or .38 a small survival vest, and no where near the training like SAS do! Hell these guys ran down a small Iraqi mech infantry platoon, and out ran a whole battalion! If that were a pilot, (sorry Haole) I'm sure he would have been captured.

I never took any pilot E&E training of course, but from what I seen around here, it looks to me they learn survival, detection, and basic field craft.Bravo 2 zero did make contact with F-15Es using their Tacbes but the details of what was happening were sketchy when the aircraft had returnned to base. Because of the limitations of the radio. TACBE is the same radio used by downed airmen. Back then it was not entirely possible to tell if an aircraft were lost immediately or not. There were several aircraft that disappeared and it was not known what happened to them until after the war. Another good example of Pilot E&E is the crew of a Tornado that was on an Airfield attack mission when they were hit by a SAM over the Airfield. The aircraft was on fire but the pilot continued flying whilst he still had control and flew for 3 minutes before they both bailed out. They were recovered not long after that. That 3 minutes was enough time to clear the area and minimise enemy detection after bailing out. You're right Pilots are not trainned to the same level as the SAS nor are they as well equipt but if the pilots TACBE failed and the ejection was immediate then he would more likely be walking home. That would more likely be discussed by the crewman before the Sortie.
cheers
Subs

[LaWMaN]

Hi Haole have a Q for you. In a 2 seater if one of the boys or girls is hit or blacks out, can the other crewman eject the other one out.

Thanks Bud.

[Marvin157th]

SUBS17,

Excellent points!! I never realized they were F-15Es that responded to their call. But I guess that makes sense as F-15s were working the North West area hunting for Scuds.

Marvin


Bravo 2 zero did make contact with F-15Es using their Tacbes but the details of what was happening were sketchy when the aircraft had returnned to base. Because of the limitations of the radio. TACBE is the same radio used by downed airmen. Back then it was not entirely possible to tell if an aircraft were lost immediately or not. There were several aircraft that disappeared and it was not known what happened to them until after the war. Another good example of Pilot E&E is the crew of a Tornado that was on an Airfield attack mission when they were hit by a SAM over the Airfield. The aircraft was on fire but the pilot continued flying whilst he still had control and flew for 3 minutes before they both bailed out. They were recovered not long after that. That 3 minutes was enough time to clear the area and minimise enemy detection after bailing out. You're right Pilots are not trainned to the same level as the SAS nor are they as well equipt but if the pilots TACBE failed and the ejection was immediate then he would more likely be walking home. That would more likely be discussed by the crewman before the Sortie.
cheers
Subs

[Haole]

Hi Haole have a Q for you. In a 2 seater if one of the boys or girls is hit or blacks out, can the other crewman eject the other one out.

Thanks Bud.
That depends on the selector in the back which can be in AFT,SOLO or NORM. If it is in the AFT position then either member can pull the handle and both seats will fire in the standard ejection sequence. When SOLO is selected it allows the front seater to eject without having to wait for the aft seat to go first. When NORM is selected you can get in to trouble..and this is why...if the front seater pulls the handle then everything is fine. The aft seat goes followed shortly by the front seat. BUT if the back seater pulls the handle first then only the aft seat goes and leaves the front seater in the jet. If the front seater can reach the handle then he/she can initiate the front seat ejection sequence. The problem occurs when the front seater's arms get caught in the windstream and broken, etc and he/she cant reach down to pull the handle and eject. They would just ride it in.
All of that make sense? If not let me know and I'll clarify it some more for ya!
CHEERS!

[Haole]

Hiya Haole,

Steve Davies talks about it in his book "F-15C/E Eagle units of Operation Iraqi Freedom" published recently by Osprey.

He talks about them having Squadron coins taped into the flag (not sewn - my mistake).
Each Flag/Coin set has it's own logbook to record who has it, and what combat missions it's been on.
They are refered to as RMO's (Round metal objects).

He doesn't specifiy them as gold (my mistake, I just assumed that) , but gold or precious metal coins are far more likely than normal coinage. Gold being a good choice as it is instantly recognizable. And I have heard of RAF pilots getting precious metal coins in a survival money belt over Iraq and Bosnia.
I can't remember where I read it, but I'll try and dig it out.

During OIF a F-15E, pilot Capt. Eric "Boot" Das and WSO Maj. William "Salty" Watkins were killed when their jet hit the ground possibly due to AAA.
One of the RMO's was found in the wreckage, and it is understood that the RMO and it's Log book were presented to "Salty's" family.
(A tragic loss of two brave men.)
Eric Das was in my UPT class and we were good friends. I had dinner with him in the chow hall tent two nights before he went down in Iraq. He was a great guy!