Tanker Formations

[Marvin157th]

Hey Haole,

I have a question regarding the rules of thumb when taking formation on a Tanker for refueling. I have seen many videos and they appear to be random whether planes all form on one wing until refueled then form on the other while they wait. Or sometimes it appears that a four ship would have either elements on each side of the wing.

Can you clarify how the 157th forms on wing?

Also, if you were a flight waiting while another refuels, where abouts would you hold until cleared for pre-contact for the Tanker.

Thanks
Marvin

[Haole]

Hey Haole,

I have a question regarding the rules of thumb when taking formation on a Tanker for refueling. I have seen many videos and they appear to be random whether planes all form on one wing until refueled then form on the other while they wait. Or sometimes it appears that a four ship would have either elements on each side of the wing.

Can you clarify how the 157th forms on wing?

Also, if you were a flight waiting while another refuels, where abouts would you hold until cleared for pre-contact for the Tanker.

Thanks
Marvin
When we take a four-ship to the tanker our standard procedure to send 1 and 2 to the left wing and 3 and 4 to the right. If cleared to precontact early enough 1 will go straight to precontact and 2 just goes to the left wing alone. Our standard refueling order is 1,3,2,4. This gives the wingman a little extra fuel since they burn more staying in formation. After 1 gets his fuel he goes back to the left wing and flies off of 2's wing. 3 will then drop to precontact. After he is complete he goes back to the right wing and flies off of number 4, etc. If another flight shows up they will usually just join to a one mile trail and wait. The next flight to show up will join to a one mile trail on that flight, etc. This is not ALWAYS the case. We are always flexible and things do change alot, but that is the way it is usually done.
If I confused ya just let me know!
CHEERS!

[Marvin157th]

When we take a four-ship to the tanker our standard procedure to send 1 and 2 to the left wing and 3 and 4 to the right. If cleared to precontact early enough 1 will go straight to precontact and 2 just goes to the left wing alone. Our standard refueling order is 1,3,2,4. This gives the wingman a little extra fuel since they burn more staying in formation. After 1 gets his fuel he goes back to the left wing and flies off of 2's wing. 3 will then drop to precontact. After he is complete he goes back to the right wing and flies off of number 4, etc. If another flight shows up they will usually just join to a one mile trail and wait. The next flight to show up will join to a one mile trail on that flight, etc. This is not ALWAYS the case. We are always flexible and things do change alot, but that is the way it is usually done.
If I confused ya just let me know!
CHEERS!

Hoale,

Wow, this great information.. So can you verify that a two ship would be similar with 1 on the left and 2 on the right?

Thanks again
Marvin

[Charlie_VFP]

Haole:

Very interesting. I had noticed in alot of our procedure manuals that there really is no SET way to refuel. Some guidlines are right wing prior to refueling - left wing after refueling.

But do you know why there is no set procedure? I've noticed that the military in general likes to have a procedure for every contingency possible. Is there a reason why tanker procedures are loose?

Does this have to do with the same idea that, when in the air, rank means nothing? My old CO was very insistant that rank was not a factor in the air. If he made a mistake, someone (regardless of their rank) had dang well better correct it without fear of his rank coming back to haunt them for it. Basically... SAFETY.

[ruprecht]

Haole:
Does this have to do with the same idea that, when in the air, rank means nothing? My old CO was very insistant that rank was not a factor in the air. If he made a mistake, someone (regardless of their rank) had dang well better correct it without fear of his rank coming back to haunt them for it. Basically... SAFETY.
Australian Army Aviation is very clear on the point that the designated aircraft or flight commander has absolute authority over the aircraft or flight regardless of rank. Furthermore, regardless of rank, safety is paramount in peacetime and secondary only to operational requirements in times of conflict.
A buddy of mine (a Captain at the time) was flying a VIP flight, ferrying a General. The General stuck his head in the cockpit and asked if they really needed to stop for fuel or if they had enough to press to their destination as he was in a hurry. The junior copilot piped up and said they had just enough, but my mate (the aircraft captain) said that they would be violating their mandatory reserves if they pressed. The General insisted. They stopped for fuel anyway. When the General tried to have my buddy charged with insubordination, the Director of Aviation (a Colonel) had more than a few angry words for him and the General ended up apologising.

[Charlie_VFP]

Yup. The general idea behind this is that all people make mistakes. Some are small and some are big. But, small problems overlooked tend to become big problems in the end.

So, even if it is a Captain telling a Colonel that he had done something wrong, the small problem is fixed before it gets big. In this business, big problems kill people.