The "Pit" and AI

[jhook]

Greetings pilots! We have discussed graphics, campain generation, types of aircraft and the weather. Now I wish to take this opportunity to discuss something that came to me when I did a post on "the avitar" thread. The cotpits are getting very detailed with instruments and hud displays. Why not have the virtual pilots hands and arms be slightly diplayed on the lower pits views, one hand on the throttle, the other hand on the fight control stick. As you activate systems and throttle up, the hand will move to the appropriate switch to activate that system. And as you throttle up, you can view the hand pushing the throttle forward. The hand/switch activation should be quick as not to obstruct any other view, and you could have this feature "lockable". Also, the pit lighting on other sims is incorrect. Except for hud's and MFD's, instruments are not backlit! A bracket light shines upon the instrument panel to view the non-iluminated instruments.

As for AI's, I will try and be brief, but AI modleing is difficult at best. I feel the time is right to express my dissatisfaction with other AI's in sims. :evil: An enemy doesn't simply fly straight towards you and fire a missle when in range, and an enemy can't figure out why you decide to slow your aircraft down and do a low "G" yo yo roll, only to have your enemy fly straight and level! :evil: This is the problem (stated from another post) AI's have an algorythum that picks from a list of data edits for that AI and it picks them at random! :evil: To correct this, requires some serrious coding from G2I/Gen Av! :thumbsup: I'm talking about a game, within a game, within a game, again! :shock: The AI tactics triggers an algorythum to determine best approch v's terrain/threat and distance to closure, once established, another algorythum begins the best weapon and firing times/positions, while another algorythum begins antisipation on countermoves and defeating the foes (possibly multiple foes) weapon (s). :D I think I'm dizzy again, but gimmy a drink and all spew forth yet more blaw from the peanut gallery. :lol: So virtual pilots, what do ya think of them apples, or oranges, or peanuts, ect. :lol:

[spyro23]

Virtual pilots hands and arms be slightly diplayed on the lower pits views, one hand on the throttle, the other hand on the fight control stick. As you activate systems and throttle up, the hand will move to the appropriate switch to activate that system. And as you throttle up, you can view the hand pushing the throttle forward.
Sounds good but there is one "but"
Hands can cover systen swithes and make you unable to activate/disactivate those systems in 2D cocpit! I dont want learn whole keyboard (with shift, ctrl and so on), some systems I can operate in virtual cocpit. Using shorcuts only when I need (for example during dog-fight).
So my proposition:
Lets make this but as an option (when ypu want you can turn this off)
Idea is good :thumbsup:

[spyro23]

Oh, i forggot add:
I agree with everything what you wrote about AI! AI should be simply awesome if FO wants be the "best sim ever"

[jhook]

I forgot to add that when the virtual pilots arm/hand is at rest on the controls, they become transparent. :mrgreen: Sorry I forgot that little detail. :?

[Vlerkies]

Not to worry bud and it's a great idea
:drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: Have a few on me jhook


:military:

~S~

[Bladehawk]

Jhook I have already opened a topic about AI...

About your Idea its VERY Good ! :thumbsup:

A BRILLIANT AI is FUNDAMENTAL !!!

A list of "Tactics" and ACM maneuvers should Exist and depending on the Skill level of the AI pilot ( Again personal stats...) they shoul become more or less dangerous as you describe...
But pilots stat must be implemented to add a random factor in AI pilots.

[Vlerkies]

Yeah, just imagine a A.I. pilot with personal stats that classify him as a phsychotic killer in the air, wouldn't wanna be chased by him or get mixed up in a dogfight

Guess what everybody, the bar is stocked up again
:drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink:

Drink away

:military:


~S~

[Bladehawk]

If they were to be implemented what Pilot Stats should be included in FO ?

Situational Awareness.
Offensive AA (ACM... aa tactics...)
Offensive AG (Bombing, Ag missiles...)
Defensive AA ( Evading any AA threats...)
Defensive AG (Evading any SAM, protecting the plane from RED Areas)

Flying Ability (Formation Flying, "Feeling the Plane"..."
Fatigue ( Is this value goes up all theo ther go Down...)
Psicological Strenght. (Resistance to Fear,to fatigue, the Will to make the mission )
Physical Strengt (resistance to injury,Fatigue, to G, forces...)

People please let´s continue! more ideas !!!

[Vlerkies]

Well i think you got everything pretty much summed up the bud


:drink: :drink:


~S~

[Bladehawk]

Well i think you got everything pretty much summed up the bud


:drink: :drink:


~S~


ummm... I think there could be more...

Allen´s Fighting Spirit etc...

The Awareness (Threat detection, taking Advantage on a engagement)


The Flying Ability (low altitude flying, Wingman performance)

But what I like to debate is how all this should mixed together ...

So... any ideas??

[spyro23]

"Bladehawk"
Flying Ability (Formation Flying, "Feeling the Plane"..."
Psicological Strenght. (Resistance to Fear,to fatigue, the Will to make the mission )

I think this is very important issue
When I fly single missions in majority flight sim AI pilots are stupid (tactics ect.) but they handle they aircrafts very well, they never stall or something like that.
In IL2 FB when I chase I-16 at very low altitude I can't hit him (in many cases) but if I fly versus live pilot I just try to scare him. I shoot a few rounds in his plane area and if he panic he make pop-up and I can get him easily. AI pilot never do this! His self control and nerves of steel are very, very irritating and unrealistic.
Many of f.e. arabic pilots are quite poor so they should be easily targets (especially when fly old plane/jet like Mig21). Example: F-16 shoot down over 70 aircraft but no ONE F-16 was shoot down by enemy jet!!! :thumbsup:
If FO wants to be a best sim ever must take this issue into account.

P.S. I don't want offense any Arab person. Not all arabs pilots are poor.

[Bladehawk]

Exactly Spyro !

In Falcon 3 In the kurille campaign if we lock an enemy for many time some times they got scared , eject weapons and flee...

I don´t see this now on F4 do you?

[Allen]

In the AI thread I made a larger post -- here is summary:

Skill has to do with the effectiveness of an attack.

Aggressiveness has to do with the tactics of the attack.

Fighting Spirit has to do with with the fight-or-flight response (tendency to stay and fight or run from the conflict). In particular, fight-or-flight seems to be missing from most sims and games -- the AI always fights -- in real life, people run somtimes.

Within the game, these would be combined to form different probabilities of reaction. The probabilities lead to the unexpected -- as in real life.

My list is not exclusive. It would be combined with other ideas for a final product.

Since I must get to work, I will make a small added comment.

As some here know, programming AI is BY FAR the single most difficult programming task to do well. Graphics and physics may be complicated, but they follow well established rules that any smart programmer may learn.

However, AI is a whole field of inexact scientific endevour. No one has figured out simple ways to implement AI (that is, ways that do not require way too much computer resources to be practical in a game). Just to try to develop good AI requires a full time AI expert (takes months of study and practice -- I know, I've tried) who is also an expert at playing the game (but, usually, the game is just being invented, so who can be an expert playing it).

Thus, it is understandable that flight sims (and other games) have "poor" AI. Actually, they may have AI that is as good as possible given the computer resources available -- but, to a human, the game is dumb.

So, it would be interesting to know, how the FigherOps team intends to approach AI development -- does the team have a couple full time AI people? Depending on the answer, one's suggestions could be modified to be more practical for FighterOps. And, that's a good thing :D

[spyro23]

I red lot of articles about making AI.
I know that this is very difficult and complicated. Making good AI is a great challange but FO developers MUST do it if they want relase "best sim ever"
I've never said that is easy!! I think that this task will be much more easiler to program when they make complex assumptions how the AI should behave. They should consider many variables which AI should depend of.
And this is (I like think that :) ) our role- give them ideas, propositions how the AI should be.
You all guys wrote about so many things I never think essential.
And that looks all this. A few brains are smarter than one brain.
So give us more ideas!! :thumbsup: :military:

P.S. Sorry for my english

[Vlerkies]

Ok you guys are right there is still alot of brainstorming to be done. Let me think a bit on that one


:military:


~S~

[Bladehawk]

...continue

Talking about injury... what effects should be implemented in FO to simulate Battle Damage on the pilot.

The Physical Strengt (resistance to injury,Fatigue, to G, forces...) should be greatly affected. Imagine one of the best pilots of our squadron injured and unable to ride a viper during 1 month.

It was good if a active Pilot like Mr. Haole give us is point of view in this point.

Psicological Strenght. (Resistance to Fear,to fatigue, the Will to make the mission )

Remember Cougar in Top Gun? Is Psicological strenght was broken the man panic and couldn´t land is plane on the carrier.
Maybe he start the dogfight with a value of 50%(he was tired or something...) and after the MIG Lock he drop to 10%

And Maverick ? with the goose death... the man simply dind´t engage !

This are simple examples of the effect of Psicological Strenght.

Ice Man and Hollyood that in the end could stant against 5 or six migs until maverick arrive because of his Hi ACM, Flying ability, and Psicological Strenght( stay focus in the mission...)

More views please ....

[jhook]

Sorry Bladehawk, I know you posted this topic, but I felt I had to discuss a few more things and your post got a little side tracked, but AI stamina, endurance, ect., scores is a fantastic idea! :thumbsup: I was mentioning the tactical algorythums an AI pilot will use. Once you add the forth algorythum (pilot stats) the AI behavior with become unpredictible! :shock: Building complex AI algorythums should be part of a "high fidelity" flight sim, as AI calculations woun't take up too much memory and processing power as well. Remember, an algorythum as a calcutation program that runs a statistical generator of variables that runs the best calculations per situation/calculations. Football sims use over 24 algorythums at once!, :shock: and they arn't too bad either. :mrgreen:

[Antler]

I'm not saying that good enemy AI isn't a good thing - good AI would probably make FO the best flight sim ever. But there are a lot more factors in a flight sim than a football sim. In a football sim, yes you do model player stats, fatigue, etc (and maybe even affect them with weather), but a flight sim is far more complex than a football sim. From what you guys are saying you would like, you would not also have to model each virtual pilot's stats (like a footballer), but also include details about the aircraft they're flying - their current payload (affecting manuverability), their damage, the numbers game (e.g. 5 against 1), the amount of time they've been in their virtual cockpits but to name a few factors :shock: .

An idea might be to (as the plan is to have this sim modular anyway) also have the AI as being modular. That way, it could be upgraded bit by bit as time goes by. After all, Half Life was supposed to have the best enemy AI when it was released. A few years later, and that AI seems childish. However, I know this could be difficult, as AI has to be part of the core game engine.

As for the idea about pilot hands in the cockpit, I agree with spyro23 in having it as a selectable option. But also, maybe we could lock the transparency at a certain percentage regardless of what they are doing. It could be very irritating to have these hands repeatedly turning from transparent to opaque, and back again.

PS. As far as I know, there has only been one series of games that has included the pilot hand: Wing Commander.

[Vlerkies]

The pilots strengths and weaknessess during batle play a very important part in the overall performance of that pilot. for e.g. being locked up by the enemy and you have nothing to defend yourself you blew your last few cannon rounds on that chopper that is now a burning wreck, all your missles have been used and the enemy has a good missle lock on you and fires. Your psychological strength decreases immediately, as well as your physical strength, because you have to out manouver the bogie until help arrives. and then you have to use the little strength you have left to land the A/c as well.


So pilot strengths and weaknessess do play a very very important part.

:drink: :drink: :drink: have a few Blade


:military:


~S~

[Bladehawk]

The pilots strengths and weaknessess during batle play a very important part in the overall performance of that pilot. for e.g. being locked up by the enemy and you have nothing to defend yourself you blew your last few cannon rounds on that chopper that is now a burning wreck, all your missles have been used and the enemy has a good missle lock on you and fires. Your psychological strength decreases immediately, as well as your physical strength, because you have to out manouver the bogie until help arrives. and then you have to use the little strength you have left to land the A/c as well.


So pilot strengths and weaknessess do play a very very important part.

:drink: :drink: :drink: have a few Blade


:military:


~S~


:drink: I will thx !!
Your reply remind me of another factor that change psychological strenght... the number of allies that can help us...

Example: One plane that request HELP to AWACS ! before he panics, our flight is called to help ... We "wilco" and that plane stays for a little more time...
Little details that generate the a deep immersion factor .

:drink: I buy the next round !

[Vlerkies]

Shot bud :thumbsup:

:military:

~S~

[jhook]

All this talk (and good talk it is) about the pilot, but I was also suggesting the algorythums/behavior of the aircraft and weapons systems. Everything revolves around the situation the AI finds it's self in. :o Also, this isn't a football sim, but the algorythums will be similar, I think, perhaps, even better! :thumbsup:

[Bladehawk]

I agree ! put 4 , 8 , 10 , 20 algorythums running at the same time ! this will be one of the "critical" areas to FO

[Vlerkies]

Agreed :thumbsup:


:military:


~S~

[jhook]

Here's the avatar movement thread.