How will G2I and GenAv show that things have changed??

[Spectre-63]

Sad to hear that censorship of unpopular opinions is already taking place on these forums...not the most promising way to show that anything has changed....regardless, back to the crux of the question:

Here's my perception of the current situation:

1.) G2I suffers from a poor reputation because of poor communication with the community.

2.) G2I also suffers from a poor reputation because of their apparent inability to keep their promises.

3.) G2I is interested in continuing as a development company. In that effort, they've partnered with GenAvSimulations to create their next product.

Now, anyone with any marketing sense at all will tell you that if you want to be successful at #3, you've got to change items #1 and #2. How do you do that?

1.) Communicate more effectively with the community, and

2.) When you promise to do something, do it! If you cannot deliver, DON'T PROMISE.



G2I has been and GenAv's members have made the decision to play in the big leagues. This, as I was trying to explain on Frugals, requires that you make some changes:

1.) Stop using "we're just volunteers" as an excuse for anything. If you're going to play in the big leagues then be prepared to act like big league players and accept responsibility for your failures as well as your successes.

3.) Be prepared to answer hard questions with more than "sorry we can't talk about this yet" Don't get me wrong, I understand the necessity for NDA's, but answering the majority of questions this way is not going to earn you the trust of those so recently burned.

As I stated to PacMan in the thread on Frugals, I really would like to see this project succeed. In order for that to happen, however, the lax "it's just a glorified community project" attitude needs to go. If you want to compete with other products like LOMAC and IL2 (and I presume that's what G2I and GenAv are in business to do), you've got to at least give the perception to your customers that you're as professional as they are...if you're not and continue with the "oh, it's okay...we're all just volunteers" attitude, you're already reducing if not eliminating your chances of success...this group has the talent to compete with products like LOMAC and IL2, all that's left to be seen is if they have the professionalism to do so...

[Ender Wiggin]

I proved my point on Frugals.

[Katz]

I have unlocked the thread after deleting some of the more inflammatory parts..............I asked Spectre if he would adjust his post which we came to an agreement over but he went offline before he had a chance to remedy the part that was requested so i have done it..........I was the one to lock it and did it before i gave Spectre a chance to remedy the situation.

If the need arises again with anyones posts you dont get a warning it gets either locked or deleted and if its bad the offending poster gets banned. Discussion is fine as long as its done politely and not just being used to bash the project or forum members or staff or people associated with G2i.

[Predator[23rd]]

Sad to hear that censorship of unpopular opinions is already taking place on these forums...not the most promising way to show that anything has changed....regardless, back to the crux of the question:

Here's my perception of the current situation:

1.) G2I suffers from a poor reputation because of poor communication with the community.

2.) G2I also suffers from a poor reputation because of their apparent inability to keep their promises.

3.) G2I is interested in continuing as a development company. In that effort, they've partnered with GenAvSimulations to create their next product.

Now, anyone with any marketing sense at all will tell you that if you want to be successful at #3, you've got to change items #1 and #2. How do you do that?

1.) Communicate more effectively with the community, and

2.) When you promise to do something, do it! If you cannot deliver, DON'T PROMISE.



G2I has been and GenAv's members have made the decision to play in the big leagues. This, as I was trying to explain on Frugals, requires that you make some changes:

1.) Stop using "we're just volunteers" as an excuse for anything. If you're going to play in the big leagues then be prepared to act like big league players and accept responsibility for your failures as well as your successes.

3.) Be prepared to answer hard questions with more than "sorry we can't talk about this yet" Don't get me wrong, I understand the necessity for NDA's, but answering the majority of questions this way is not going to earn you the trust of those so recently burned.

As I stated to PacMan in the thread on Frugals, I really would like to see this project succeed. In order for that to happen, however, the lax "it's just a glorified community project" attitude needs to go. If you want to compete with other products like LOMAC and IL2 (and I presume that's what G2I and GenAv are in business to do), you've got to at least give the perception to your customers that you're as professional as they are...if you're not and continue with the "oh, it's okay...we're all just volunteers" attitude, you're already reducing if not eliminating your chances of success...this group has the talent to compete with products like LOMAC and IL2, all that's left to be seen is if they have the professionalism to do so...

Good post, Spectre.

KIWI, personally I am against every kind of moderation. This is not a forum for kids and even if there are some minors amongs us they are mature enough to deal with everything here. So let the community decide what was good and what was not so good. The community members will give the necessary feedback. The harder the question ist and the meaner it is formulated the better it is for you. Every bitching question you can answer is a big plus on your account. Therefore let the fingers off the edit button and allow even the meanest questinns and formulations. The project it self is no human and has no feelings therefore any attack, in any form, is IMO O.K. Everybody involved in the project may get their feelings hurt. That is the price they have decided to pay at the moment the entered this project. If they can't stand it they should do something else.

The only point where moderation would be necessary is the point of very mean personal attacks. Little skirmishes are, again IMO, O.K.

[Buckshot]

Predator, I'm glad that's your opinion, and if I visit your forums I'll remember that.

On these forums however, any personal attacks won't be permitted, and trolling type posts attacking G2i, GenAvSims, or anybody else won't be permitted either.

[Autie]

It seems that, thus far, anything resembling a difficult question directed towards G2i is considered a personal attack. You are in business. . . business is difficult. we are your customers. . . you need our money. To get our money you have to endure some tough questions.

Thus far this forum has been like a grumpy waitress. Imagine sitting in a restaurant and it takes 20 minutes for a server to get your table. YOu say,"it took you quite awhile to get to me so I could order a drink"
She replies, "I am sorry but we have decided that customer complaints will not be permitted in the dining room. YOu will have to leave now."

Seems preposterous right?

[Spectre-63]

Penetrator, I'm glad that's your opinion, and if I visit your forums I'll remember that.

On these forums however, any personal attacks won't be permitted, and trolling type posts attacking G2i, GenAvSims, or anybody else won't be permitted either.

The deleted section of the post wasn't a personal attack or "trolling". (and can be read over on Frugals in the "Post Deleted at Frugals thread - http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showpost.php?p=650626&postcount=5http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showpost.php?p=650626&postcount=5 ) It was pointing out that G2I need to start addressing their customers concerns about their professionalism from the beginning.

It appeared to me that this thread was closed because one of the mods didn't like getting caught with his foot in his mouth: "we don't care for you opinions, or we would have asked for them"??? On one hand, there's PacMan saying that community input and involvement is wanted, on the other is this crap.... if you want community involvement and input on how to make things better, you have to be able to accept criticism as well as praise. Kiwi deserves some of that praise for being willing to override a bad decision by one of the other mods. It's nice to see a willingness to acknowledge mistakes.

[Pacman]

]
Sad to hear that censorship of unpopular opinions is already taking place on these forums...not the most promising way to show that anything has changed....regardless, back to the crux of the question:

Here's my perception of the current situation:

1.) G2I suffers from a poor reputation because of poor communication with the community.

2.) G2I also suffers from a poor reputation because of their apparent inability to keep their promises.

3.) G2I is interested in continuing as a development company. In that effort, they've partnered with GenAvSimulations to create their next product.

Now, anyone with any marketing sense at all will tell you that if you want to be successful at #3, you've got to change items #1 and #2. How do you do that?

1.) Communicate more effectively with the community, and

2.) When you promise to do something, do it! If you cannot deliver, DON'T PROMISE.



G2I has been and GenAv's members have made the decision to play in the big leagues. This, as I was trying to explain on Frugals, requires that you make some changes:

1.) Stop using "we're just volunteers" as an excuse for anything. If you're going to play in the big leagues then be prepared to act like big league players and accept responsibility for your failures as well as your successes.

3.) Be prepared to answer hard questions with more than "sorry we can't talk about this yet" Don't get me wrong, I understand the necessity for NDA's, but answering the majority of questions this way is not going to earn you the trust of those so recently burned.

As I stated to PacMan in the thread on Frugals, I really would like to see this project succeed. In order for that to happen, however, the lax "it's just a glorified community project" attitude needs to go. If you want to compete with other products like LOMAC and IL2 (and I presume that's what G2I and GenAv are in business to do), you've got to at least give the perception to your customers that you're as professional as they are...if you're not and continue with the "oh, it's okay...we're all just volunteers" attitude, you're already reducing if not eliminating your chances of success...this group has the talent to compete with products like LOMAC and IL2, all that's left to be seen is if they have the professionalism to do so...

Good post, Spectre.

KIWI, personally I am against every kind of moderation. This is not a forum for kids and even if there are some minors amongs us they are mature enough to deal with everything here. So let the community decide what was good and what was not so good. The community members will give the necessary feedback. The harder the question ist and the meaner it is formulated the better it is for you. Every bitching question you can answer is a big plus on your account. Therefore let the fingers off the edit button and allow even the meanest questinns and formulations. The project it self is no human and has no feelings therefore any attack, in any form, is IMO O.K. Everybody involved in the project may get their feelings hurt. That is the price they have decided to pay at the moment the entered this project. If they can't stand it they should do something else.

The only point where moderation would be necessary is the point of very mean personal attacks. Little skirmishes are, again IMO, O.K.

Predator,

I agree and I disagree.

This is still a bussiness and certain aspects need to be respected.
I'm absolutely sure you would like to know what GenAvSims is about, I told people time and time again that I can't go into detail about our bussinesspartner right now.
Still people keep asking the same question and ultimately one will go, "why don't you answer my question?"

Information will be given when it is available.

The project isn't human but is influenced by human behaviour, and this is the game of anything that you say, can and will be used against you if anybody wishes to do so.
I am not playing that game, I'm sticking to the things I can tell you.

And you will find out very clearly, and probably have already noticed that I can deal with a certain attitude from a poster, but I'm sure you will understand that if somebody is pushing it, he will be the next one to say: "Why don't you answer my questions??"

I'll answer what I can, and this is important to me, but understand that I have a family and work to do on this project.
I don't have the time to brwose the forums 24/7.
But if I'm on, I'll answer everything I can.

Friendly regards,

Pacman

[Pacman]

Penetrator, I'm glad that's your opinion, and if I visit your forums I'll remember that.

On these forums however, any personal attacks won't be permitted, and trolling type posts attacking G2i, GenAvSims, or anybody else won't be permitted either.

The deleted section of the post wasn't a personal attack or "trolling". (and can be read over on Frugals in the "Post Deleted at Frugals thread - http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showpost.php?p=650626&postcount=5http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showpost.php?p=650626&postcount=5 ) It was pointing out that G2I need to start addressing their customers concerns about their professionalism from the beginning.

It appeared to me that this thread was closed because one of the mods didn't like getting caught with his foot in his mouth: "we don't care for you opinions, or we would have asked for them"??? On one hand, there's PacMan saying that community input and involvement is wanted, on the other is this crap.... if you want community involvement and input on how to make things better, you have to be able to accept criticism as well as praise. Kiwi deserves some of that praise for being willing to override a bad decision by one of the other mods. It's nice to see a willingness to acknowledge mistakes.

I believe you are reffering to things Jug said on Frugals.
He was at that time answering personally, to the attitude you gave us in the beginning, and I have asked him to drop any personall issues.
IMHO this has nothing to do with what I post.

[Firebird]

Penetrator, I'm glad that's your opinion, and if I visit your forums I'll remember that.

On these forums however, any personal attacks won't be permitted, and trolling type posts attacking G2i, GenAvSims, or anybody else won't be permitted either.


Hi Buckshot,
I know enough of you and of Predator to know this is not your style. If you don´t want personal attacks you should stay away from them.
;o)

Yours,

[Firebird]

Hi Pacman,

your answer is very nice and I appreciate you answering the questions.

Of course it is tricky. We all know that the "I can´t tell" had included miss-information or even lies (or unlucky promises) before. The suspicion of the community is not out of nowhere, it was created by behavior.

Whenever anyone refuses to give any information there naturally rises the question "why?". We all know there is no god standing behind you threatening you to NOT TELL (or is there??? ;o). So of course people ask themselves why that info is not given to them. The more ridicolous the refuse to tell the more vivid are rumors and speculations.

There would be nothing bad about tell something like my partner is very experienced and he so far did this, this, this and that. If you can not tell that there obviously is a reason like (he doesn´t want to be announced officially yet, he is not existant, we want to have a co-ordinated summed up report of information, ect...).

There is also a flip coin as well. The less info you share with your community the less is the community able to "feel with you" (psychological). They canot imagine your situation cause you finally separate yourself from the community. Instead you should psychologically try to join with your community. Make your success their success, make their lack of knowledge your lack of knowledge.

Answers like "We don´t know who our partner is and what he did but we will forward your questions and try to find out" would make you to agents of the community and thus join you.

I can well live with your lack of information. Just trying to open your mind and point of view to what I could imagine are feelings of the community. Try not to handle them like a crazy crowd of kids that want some ice-cream from you. Try to handle them like mature guys who have very common and reasonable worries and questions....

Thx for your attention,

[Pacman]

Firebird,

You're reasoning is very correct here.
I know that "no-information" is indeed not good for communication.
And I think faulty information is even worse.

I understand that people will ask themselves "why", I would too.

Regarding assumptions, it's maybe ok to make assumptions in private amongst each other.
These are public boards, and making assumptions doesn't help either.

[Firebird]

Yep, that is true, so we should work for the fastest disclosure of facts possible.

And work for a disclosure of the past as well to make the community understand what has gone wrong and why, so they can feel safe that you took actions to not let that happen again....
;o)

Yours,

[Chief]

:evil: Rant turned on!
I have followed the "introduction" of this new site and forum. I have read the "rules" which reflect those on most forums. I have seen many fans of this genre' offer their best wishes on this new undertaking and have indicated an understanding and acceptance of the lack of "up to the minute" reports as to each and every aspect of this venture. What boggles me is the impertinance of some that they "deserve" whatever information they want , when they want it.
To these I would ask, when did any auto manufacturer or any other major business feed you that type of info about their service or product? Try to find out what the next "new car" is going to be and recommend that you have unlimited input into that products development. Not! They make it, and you either buy it or you don't. The mere fact that you may be a potential customer (if they soothe your savage ego) is of course important to them as customers are what they seek.
But there is a limit at which a business must say" we've looked at the market, and we think we have a product that we've settled on and think it will sell." It would be unrealistic to think that their product will be all things to all people, and hence they will lose some of those potential customers. That's business!
That we have anyone who is willing to take another business risk in the niche market of "survey sims" is remarkable to say the least. What with the observations of the reaction to the "eliteists" in this community regarding the pre-release changes (caused by business decisions)of the release of the last sim (LOMAC) targeted at this market, I wonder why anyone would want to accept the abuse.
Will they (the company) answer all your questions when you want them? If it is in their interests from a business perspective to do so? Possibly. Do you have a right to make such demands? I think not. And if you"take a hike" because of it, so be it. Good riddance. I suspect that if they provide a good product, even if it fails to meet everyone's expectations, it will sell well without your individual purchase.
As grownups you should know you have the right to either purchase the product/service or not. That's the power you have through your pocket book. But to expect that you can demand that it meet every one of your personal desires is ludicrous (unless you can afford a custom designed product where you do dictate the final outcome $$$$$$$).
I, for one support the "strict" policing of this forum so that it also does not turn into another challenge for those seeking both input and answers, without having to be scrutinized and belittled by the "eliteists" who want more to vent their spleens than offer anything constructive. I would say to those what "Stormin" did. "if the shoe fits..." Civility should rule and if the "Mods" have to be heavy-handed to see that is the case. More power to them. This is the WWW and you have no freedom of speech rights not granted by those who pay for the website. :| Rant Turned Off!

My best wishes and God's speed to those undertaking this difficult endeavor. :thumbsup: [/u]

[Pacman]

Chief,

I want to thank you for your support, understanding and your good wishes.

:thumbsup: :drink:

[Weteye]

Hello all. I am not sure if i am placing this correctly as i have never posted on a forum before. I wish to thank Fighter Ops for attempting a new sim and i wish them well in this endeavor.I am pleased to see a greeting to them from "Stormin" he is a stand-up guy imho.I am sorry for ALL the negative comments from the doubting thomases, jeez guys give the new guys a break!I look forward to your new product and hope for the best for you. :D
Respectfully Weteye

[Katz]

hey Weteye welcome to the forums and thankyou for the support :thumbsup:

[Spectre-63]

I believe you are reffering to things Jug said on Frugals.
He was at that time answering personally, to the attitude you gave us in the beginning, and I have asked him to drop any personall issues.
IMHO this has nothing to do with what I post.

Actually, no, it had to do with things Ender said on Frugals - Autie expressed some valid concerns about your organization (claiming to be ready to release in 9 months but, when pressed for information, saying "wait for us to get organized") and was told by Ender that the group "wasn't interested" in his opinion.

Another point: like it or not, each of the individuals involved in this project are not spokesmen - their comments to the community are going to be viewed as being indicative of the mindset of your group. If you want to change people's perception of G2I and GenAv, it's going to be important for the members of this group to keep that in mind when posting responses.

Chief -

you liken this group to an auto manufacturer and make a valid point about auto manufacturers not being willing to discuss future product, etc with their consumer base. There is, however, one very large difference between this group and an auto manufacturer: no auto manufacturer I'm aware of asks for it's consumer base to come in and design and build cars for them. Their employees may also be customers but those employees are getting paid for all the time they're at work and aren't placed in the position of receiving payment for their work only after the product is sold. Members of this community are being asked (again) to dedicate their time to a project that may or may not come to fruition. After all, BMS and the G2I testers worked for over 6 months believing they were approaching some kind of release, only to have the rug pulled out from under them in the end. If you want people to dedicate their time based upon a promise of some future reimbursement, you have to be willing to demonstrate that that future reimbursement is going to happen. Showing that you're organized NOW and able to keep to timetables NOW goes a long way towards demonstrating that.

[195th_Seawolf]

I find it funny that a few nobodys think they are somebodys and demand thier questions answered. If you support the whole thing then stick around if you dont take a hike. simple as that. I dont remember losing any money to G2I so I dont see any harm in seeing what happens with this.

[Buckshot]

Yes Spectre, that is a very good point, and you will find things much more open around here.

However, the guys who are demanding detailed information at such an early phase of development are going to have to be a little patient.

[Chief]

Spectre-63,
I respect your position and your point of view. If someone does reach out and accept the offer to participate in the development of this project, I would hope they would contact the appropriate representative to offer their services and have any questions regarding the project discussed between the parties prior to any such contractual agreement. Having those inquiries and discussions take place in an open forum just seems to me to be counterproductive. If a person does not agree with the "plan" of the organization, they have every right to with-hold their participation. But what I have seen lately seems that some are sowing sour grapes due to a previous situation (F4-OIR) and even though this is being driven by the same person (CC) it is a whole new venture sans the constraints placed on him in the previously mentioned situation. I am only concerned that the community let by-gones be by-gones and look ahead not backward. This whole niche genre could die if we don't all pull together. My 2 cents! Thanks for listening and feel free to critique my views :wink:

[Buckshot]

Great post Chief, and you hit the nail right on the head.

More information will be given to the community as time progresses, and you will find this one of the most open projects you have seen. Are we going to be publishing contract details, financial information, personal information relating to individuals or private companies contributing? Of course not. But apart from that as this progresses you will be able to follow developments as they happen.

We only ask a little patience as things are put into place.

[Predator[23rd]]

Great post Chief, and you hit the nail right on the head.

More information will be given to the community as time progresses, and you will find this one of the most open projects you have seen. Are we going to be publishing contract details, financial information, personal information relating to individuals or private companies contributing? Of course not. But apart from that as this progresses you will be able to follow developments as they happen.

We only ask a little patience as things are put into place.

May I ask you then what makes this project special? I mean there are shi't loads of commercial project where you can "follow developments as they happen". Why do you think (or actually say) that this project will be one of the most open projects if you are not doing anything special or different?

[Spectre-63]

Great post Chief, and you hit the nail right on the head.

More information will be given to the community as time progresses, and you will find this one of the most open projects you have seen. Are we going to be publishing contract details, financial information, personal information relating to individuals or private companies contributing? Of course not. But apart from that as this progresses you will be able to follow developments as they happen.

We only ask a little patience as things are put into place.

I hear an awful lot about "having patience as things are put into place" - shouldn't they already be in place??? Comes down to professionalism again and the 6 P's: Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance - from what I've seen so far, this group wasn't in any way prepared before announcing their project and now, post announcement, still doesn't have things ready to answer questions. There's a lot of talk about how this will be "one of the most open projects ever seen" but nothing but talk. G2I said over and over and over again that "more information would be given to the community" but that never happened - why should I believe any different this time?

Chief -

I'll make one more point with regards to having some of these discussions be public: G2I is fighting an already poor reputation with a good portion of the community. They've got to climb back out of the red ink of negative reputation before they'll be granted some of the leeway you're suggesting. In addition, failing to provide any information (beyond the marketing hype) about what the results of participation will be is a good way to have people who are on the fence about getting involved steer clear. It shouldn't require a commitment to participate to be able to obtain any concrete information about how the project is organized and how it all will work.

From what I've seen so far, it's rather like the Project Phoenix open-source sim: a lot of pie-in-the-sky dreams with no plan for execution and little chance of anything actually happening. At least with Project Phoenix, developers will be involved in a true open-source project. What reason would they have for putting their time into this project as opposed to Project Phoenix?

[Buckshot]

why should I believe any different this time?


You don't have to believe it, I totally understand. Just wait and watch it happen.

Alternatively, if you want to take up this offer, contact me on icq, if you have teamspeak, or are willing to download it, I'll put you in a conference right now with Claude, Stang and myself, and you can ask any questions you would like.

[Chief]

Spectre-63,
point well taken. I honestly am not familiar with the Project Phoenix effort so it would be inappropriate for me to attmpt answer to your question. But another point from my position. Is it not more reasonable for any of the talented individuals that have been supporting this genre with their sweat and tears, to approach the offer to become a participant in the development of this new project (FO), by getting in touch privately with the appropriate rep from the company so that any contractual agreement and NDA stipulations can be worked out in private. Certainly I am not against the developers "feeding" us information as to the progress or other facets of their project. That is a tried and true mechanism of marketing these types of products. Builds enthusiasm and interests. But some of the more internal business information is the proprietary property of the business and even if they profess to be "as open as possible", I for one do not take that literally as there are just simply some business practices that are internalized.
As to the past experience with G2i, we were all disappointed. Also don't have all the true facts as to what went down there and probably never will, but can't imagine CC placing himself in the current position with the community if it was avoidable. Where does he profit by that? The mountain he has to clinb is now even steeper but he is now trying to re-establish a connection with a very sceptical community and unless one is a total masochist, any other person might have packed it in by now. I don't know where he gets the enthusiasm to do this in light of the (deserved scepticism?) circumstance.
I am a "user". I have zip talent when it comes to contributing anything other than sideline cheering for the true talent in this community. I hope somehow over the years I have been able to express my appreciation. The truth is that the majority of us are "users" and only a minority are really advancing the genre'. Since there is a relatively small pool of talented people that have been offered an opportunity to participate in this project, how do us "users" have any right to information privy to those in "developement? Sure we want as much info as we can get as soon as we can get it, but some info we have no right to expect. My opinion and I may be wrong. Please feel free to critique my thoughts, right or wrong. Semper Fi! :military:

[cssc]

hi people i have two questions.

1 why are fighterops doing this website?

2 why don't they just go away sort there games out and when they are ready then come back and tell us?

[IxianMace]

Fighter Ops is the name of the game. I'm not sure that there's a corporation/organization of the same name. Eluzion did the website, as far as I know. The website was created to give people a place to get info about the game, as the info comes, I guess.

[cssc]

well so far all i see is people argueing

[Predator[23rd]]

Look mum! I am freehand color text typing

[Katz]

]Look mum! I am freehand color text typing

make sure you clean up after yourself i dont want crayon or felt on the walls in here thanks :-p :mrgreen:

[Predator[23rd]]

make sure you clean up after yourself i dont want crayon or felt on the walls in here thanks :-p :mrgreen:

deal!

[IxianMace]

Lol, just gotta love that. :thumbsup: I wonder how many more forums I'm going to 'infect' with the colour trend. :punk:

[Pacman]

hi people i have two questions.

1 why are fighterops doing this website?

To let everybody know that we are still working on the flighsimgenre.
And what our goals are.

2 why don't they just go away sort there games out and when they are ready then come back and tell us?

hmmm, I don't see why we would do that, it's not because all answers are not being given that we are not working on this.
And I am sure a lot of people appreciate what we are doing.