View Full Version : Please do us a favor!!!
Papernose
03-03-2004, 07:51
I dont hope this will end in a flame war, but since I am not new in the flight-sim genre, I dont think that I am that way off with my opinion.
After 5 months hasseling with Falcon4:OIR you want to make us believe that in another 8 to 10 months you will present us with a new, state of the art, flight sim (from the scratch). You do not have any information about gfx-engine, simple little pics, anything...
I do appreciate very much the birth of a new military flightsim, but why, holy cow, just why are you giving us a date (Q4 2004) that is in NO WAY meetable, no matter what you do. Why does every announcement just HAVE TO BE so utopic. I remember LOMAC... how often has this been delayed... and now dont you tell me "We are not LOMAC"... I know THAT!
But it is simply irrealistic, to say the least, to do such a task in this time. You know that, we know that. And is kind of embarassing, that you try to make us think you could build Rom in one day.
It will give again endless discussions again, when you announce the multiple delays that WILL come. And it WILL give flamewars over and over again. And I wonder if this couldn't have been avoided if you would have given us a realistic release date. Maybe still one to be delayed after all (which sim hasn't) - but at least not THAT obvious.
I wish you all the luck you can have! And I hope - for us all - that this project will be finished - and land on our harddrive! Maybe even within 2005...
Regards
Papernose
the announcement and the website has only recently been made so why not just give us time to get sorted properly then you will get the info you want :D
Papernose
03-03-2004, 08:29
Please Katz, dont get me wrong. I do not blame you for missing information. All I wonder about is, why opening a website with a complete unachievable goal... this is bound to dissappoint everyone involved.
Again, I wish you all the luck! Maybe tell the people in charge to rethink their PR-work.
Looking forward to a new great flightsim!
Greets
Papernose
the announcement and the website has only recently been made so why not just give us time to get sorted properly then you will get the info you want :D
Sounds like a game plan but don't make announcements and not expect them to be questioned. Hey, one thing I know for sure, if you create the best sim out there then you won't have to worry about sales. I know that this community can be very harsh but it also can be very forgiving. I never believed in post when people say that they won't buy from company x because they did something. If that company releases an outstanding product then they will buy it.
Sascha "Conan" Mangs
Please Katz, dont get me wrong. I do not blame you for missing information. All I wonder about is, why opening a website with a complete unachievable goal... this is bound to dissappoint everyone involved.
Again, I wish you all the luck! Maybe tell the people in charge to rethink their PR-work.
Looking forward to a new great flightsim!
Greets
Papernose
You forget that they did mention to have joined forces with another company. I doubt that they will have to start this sim from scratch. This other company probably has already work done on a sim. I hope its a defense contractor who has done work on the military's falcon sim, wouldn't that be incredible news. But we will have to wait and see until we get the news. Let them sort this out.
Sascha "Conan" Mangs
In the absence of more information, too many assumptions are being made. Why not sit back let the info and clarifications come as promised. This isnt Falcon anymore so why get our thongs too bunched up.
Predator[23rd]
03-03-2004, 10:02
In the absence of more information, too many assumptions are being made. Why not sit back let the info and clarifications come as promised. This isnt Falcon anymore so why get our thongs too bunched up.
Wrong answer!
It is everytime your side which causes this kind of rush. Somebody in your rangs is coming up with rubbish like "hardcore sim in Q4 2004" - from scratch!!! Everybody -sane enough to count from 1 to 5- does know that this is ****ing impossible but never the less your lot is able to find some lunatic who is willing to put his name under such an announcement.
Mower, I know that you are a very talented guy and very involved with other big Falcon community projects. Since you have been convinced to join G2I they must have told you something. Now tell us what it is and prove the "community involvement" G2I is constantly talking about.
Nobody over there should be surprised that the tone in the upcoming discussions will be rough. You screwed up and have to live with the responsibility of your failure. Unless you cannot convince the people in the next 2-3 months that you this time know what you are doing the whole project is ****ed.
Predator, Wrong questions! No one that has knowledge about this project is going to say a thing. I know you know how NDAs work. We all know you never believed in OIR and don't believe in this project ([frugals]). I do respect that and don't have a problem shaking hands with you as a fellow falconer. Now, if you are here in this forum, if you had the curiosity to come to this page, isn't because you WANT this project to be a reality? Now be sincere ... wouldn't you love to have a realistic fighter simulator x100 better than Falcon? The answer is yes, you would (don't mean to put words on your mouth, I just know how involved you are in the Falcon community and thus I assume). Maybe you've got things against G2i, and again, I respect them. But if the answer to the former question was "yes", then you NEED this project to be a reality.
The other choice to why you are in this forum might be because you just love to critize G2i no matter what. Critizism is good, but you critize once for a given issue. If you do so repeatedly, your reputation as a critic falls. Because I'm willing to listen to you and your opinions once; the statement is made and therefore I don't need anyone saying over and over how they think their thoughts. Children do that, not us.
So, no need to believe in this project. I understand you need proof and proof will be given when convenient, I am sure. That's your decision which I will NEVER try to undermine or try to convince you that you may be wrong. I wish the same for me.
Cheers,
Ace
]
Everybody -sane enough to count from 1 to 5- does know that this is [censored] impossible but never the less your lot is able to find some lunatic who is willing to put his name under such an announcement.
We might be lunatics but we still have hope and dreams in our life. Not just disappointment and sarcasm. Where would we be if we would give up and loose hope that quickly.
Conan
Predator[23rd]
03-03-2004, 11:12
I know you know how NDAs work. We all know you never believed in OIR and don't believe in this project ([frugals]).
Hey, wait a minute! NDAs? WTF??? Somebody here said this project will involve the community and the NDA era is over. NDAs were necessary because companies were eager to protect their IP and source code And I am not asking something about the source code. All my question should be easy to answer, even with NDAs (which would be a reason for me to doubt the sucess of this project in advance).
Right now I have absolutly no attitude against the project itself. I do have an attitude against the way G2I is doing "business". But putting all that aside, my questions have a single purpose = give you the opportunity to answer them and build confidence.
I understand you need proof and proof will be given when convenient, I am sure.
Well, buddy, that is not my understanding in open community cooperation. If you need us than we should meet at the same level. We all would be very happy about a simulation (only) 2x (100x may be a little bit too difficult) better than Falcon 4.0. But at the end of the day G2I depends more on us than we do on them. So, there is no benefit in the "mightier than you" attitude for them.
I said it countless times before. Do not make promises which you cannot deliver. The community does not want promises. We can wait. But as soon as you say "homepage will be updated in 2 days" or "will be released before holiday" you are putting yourself under pressure and start whining when I (or others) hold you responsible for your failure. It is soooo simple ...
Predator[23rd]
03-03-2004, 11:19
We might be lunatics but we still have hope and dreams in our life. Not just disappointment and sarcasm. Where would we be if we would give up and loose hope that quickly.
Conan
That quickly? Are 2 years of dissappointment a short time?
Maybe I look like sarcastic but until now I was never wrong with my "prophecies". That makes me a realist, don't you think so?
Even if I ask you questions your prefer not to hear, try to answer them. They will help the project!
]
That quickly? Are 2 years of dissappointment a short time?
Maybe I look like sarcastic but until now I was never wrong with my "prophecies". That makes me a realist, don't you think so?
Predator,
I do get your point and I don't mind you questioning the project. I know that your questions have always been the source of heated discussions and that's not really a bad thing. I just don't see where the 2 years of dissappoinment are coming from? We got BMS, didn't we??? I am quite thrilled by the BMS exe and therefore we did not really loose anything. But that is just my feeling. I understand the people that feel otherwise because they hoped for OIR. I just hoped for a better Falcon4 experience and I got that.
]
Even if I ask you questions your prefer not to hear, try to answer them. They will help the project!
Completly agree. They promised to be open so BE OPEN.
Conan
Predator, I'm sure once everything is settled information will be given to the community. I myself, am still bound by the NDA I signed for OIR, and I will keep to it until Claude gives me a thumbs up. That's just the way it is. As for how the community will be involved in this project, again, we'll have to wait and see. IMO (since I don't have that kind of information), only the people that wants to get involve will be involved. If I don't want to help or be part of this project, I suppose no one will send me a source, or 3D models, or anything like it. And because of that constraint, people will have to sign NDAs mostly to keep the IP safe. As I said, this is just an assumption. If you tell me (and I am not part of G2i), I would make people sign NDAs. I'd be making an open project, but as safe as possible.
As for community cooperation, I am sure communication between G2i and the "community" (testers, devs, etc.) will be as open as it was with OIR. Still, certain things can not be said out in the open and has to be kept by the company itself. But I am sure communication won't be a problem (I never had a problem with G2i, i.e., Stang, Claude, etc).
My friend, promises are made when we think things will happen. Sometimes we have to break those promises because of external issues out of our control. I've done that several times in my life, and believe me, I did feel bad for it but not guilty. BTW, no one ever said "I promise XXX will be out by Xmas". As I recall, it was more like "We expect to have XXX by Xmas". I was expecting OIR as we all did. I was shocked when I read it was not going to happen, but I don't blame anyone. At least there is an intention to start a new project and I'd like to help. Just because I'd like to fly faster and better as we all do :)
Cheers,
Ace
Predator[23rd]
03-03-2004, 11:47
BMS has been made possible by G2I but has not been programed by their own staff. In that respect I don't count it as their success. It would have been theirs if they did it under their own flag and called the mod g2i103.exe or something, but they didn't.
We have SP4 and FF2.1, which are also beautiful mods/upgrades - especially in junction with BMS. These upgrades are also the reason why I said that at the end of the day G2I depends more on us than we on them...
As I said in another post, I was part of F4Ut some time ago. Still, every group in the community has done an outstanding and professional work. NO ONE doubts this fact and everyone is very thankful to them.
About BMS/G2i ... why get into this? I understand that you give full credit to BMS; I have a different view and give credit to both G2i and BMS, plus every member of the beta team and dev teams since they did what they did for the same philosophy F4UT, FF, eTeam, RPG, etc. did.
Once again I have to agree with you; SP4 and FF2.1 (as well as BMS 1.03) are great mods. About the dependency, its a very complicated matter. They may depend on us for a benefit, but we depend on them for hope and ilusion. You may laugh at this last comment, but honestly, falcon groups have come and go. Groups will dissolve and groups will be made again. But Falcon has reach the saturation point at which no major improvements will be possible without the source code. And we know who's the owner. So I decide to support G2i; because as I see it, there might or might not be a future to hardcore sims, but G2i is probably our only hope.
Predator, the fact is that all you have to do is wait and see :) I don't know what's going to happen, as well as you don't. You can speculate that we won't see anything new by your experience, but I can also assume that this project will be the future to hardcore sim because of my experience working with G2i. Its a matter of views as I said before, I respect yours.
Take care,
Ace
Predator[23rd]
03-03-2004, 15:30
You can speculate that we won't see anything new by your experience, but I can also assume that this project will be the future to hardcore sim because of my experience working with G2i.
You are mixing something here. I never said that I am against this new project and that it will have a bad come out. All I am trying to say is that G2I has the bad habit to repeat the same mistakes. My point here is to advice caution and ask some questions about the new project. Of course, the question are of negative nature because I don't have any positive experience with G2I, but I say it again: I AM NOT AGAINST THIS PROJECT AND I AM NOT SAYING YOU CAN'T CUT IT.
When it comes to credit, I am giving it primarily the persons who spend their free time behind the computer typing some code and from here it goes down the chain. IMO, G2I comes last.
]When it comes to credit, I am giving it primarily the persons who spend their free time behind the computer typing some code and from here it goes down the chain. IMO, G2I comes last.
He does have a point here. Though, I still believe that we were better off with G2I which allowed those patches to be created legally. Other companies would not have done it. You might say that other companies probably would have delivered a product. However, that would most likely not have included the attention to detail as we are used to from BMS because of the influence we had.
Conan
everclear
03-03-2004, 22:58
[quote=Predator[23rd]]
That quickly? Are 2 years of dissappointment a short time?
Maybe I look like sarcastic but until now I was never wrong with my "prophecies". That makes me a realist, don't you think so?
Sigh.......................................
Predator, we are starting to see you as perhaps that necessary dark side to balance out our over achieving tendancy to hope. Face it we are sheep. Thats all we are. Sheep drifting mindlessly over the edge. In our feeble little minds we have chosen to follow the evil one and so are lost. It matters little that you rant on and on and on. Like a wind up toy in the corner that forgot to run down. A noise that's all. Your crusade to ensure that we distrust, disbelieve, and disapprove is dying. It's scary. You may just be the only voice of reason left and yet it's affect is fading, fading, fading. We are being absorbed by the darkness.
God I hope your never my tax collector and I am glad your not my father. You are just waiting like a vulture to swoop down on the faintest hint of of deception.
Now all that said, I understand that you have an opinion about these things. I also understand your opinion is based on things you either know or have heard or even seen first hand, or they may be based on things you don't know. Maybe these people are (evil) as you say. But we are willing to start over (yes again). Even though this and even though that. And certianly if some have been injured in the past by actions you or I have no way of preventing, at some point we have to let them work it out amongst themselves.
I have made a decision to be supportive. In doing so I have a hope that we can work together to build something great. In doing so I am freed from feeling the need to continue making judgments. I am looking forward to "something at least" Maybe I'll be dissapointed. It's my choice.
Tell me, on you current course what do you look forward to. :(
I still don't understand why anyone outside g2i cares enough to criticise!
Here's three reasons why I don't care:
1. I have no investment in g2i/FO. If I stood to lose money, or if I had been contributing my time for free, then I would care; but I don't, I haven't, and therefore I don't.
2. FO is not Falcon. Even if I had a problem with g2i's handling of Falcon/OIR, which I don't, FO is a totally different project. If it goes ahead, and produces a good product, excellent - I'll buy it! If it fails, and doesn't, then also excellent - I get to keep my money! I don't care, again, because I can't lose anything.
3. Criticising doesn't make me happy, so I prefer not to. I have more important things in my life than this so I save my energy for them, this is just a hobby, so I don't care.
For those who are worried about being 'lied' to, please tell me of a computer game that you know of that was released on time? If you weant to see the release date as a "promise", that's up to you, but I can assure you that it is not meant that way by the developers. I work in game development, and it's just too complex a business to be able to make definite promises. Look at what happened to Stormin over the release of the LOMAC demo - and he never made a promise to anyone, just an announcement - that was correct when he made it but was later overturned by the publisher.
For those of you who are trying to answer these criticisms, I wouldn't bother if I were you. No-one posting them has a stake in the success of your project - only you have that - and since they've already made up their minds, nothing you can post here will change their view. Your time is better spent working than dealing with people like that!
Regards
33
well said Golf thankyou :thumbsup:
BigBoy01
03-04-2004, 07:58
I still don't understand why anyone outside g2i cares enough to criticise!
Here's three reasons why I don't care:
1. I have no investment in g2i/FO. If I stood to lose money, or if I had been contributing my time for free, then I would care; but I don't, I haven't, and therefore I don't.
2. FO is not Falcon. Even if I had a problem with g2i's handling of Falcon/OIR, which I don't, FO is a totally different project. If it goes ahead, and produces a good product, excellent - I'll buy it! If it fails, and doesn't, then also excellent - I get to keep my money! I don't care, again, because I can't lose anything.
3. Criticising doesn't make me happy, so I prefer not to. I have more important things in my life than this so I save my energy for them, this is just a hobby, so I don't care.
For those who are worried about being 'lied' to, please tell me of a computer game that you know of that was released on time? If you weant to see the release date as a "promise", that's up to you, but I can assure you that it is not meant that way by the developers. I work in game development, and it's just too complex a business to be able to make definite promises. Look at what happened to Stormin over the release of the LOMAC demo - and he never made a promise to anyone, just an announcement - that was correct when he made it but was later overturned by the publisher.
For those of you who are trying to answer these criticisms, I wouldn't bother if I were you. No-one posting them has a stake in the success of your project - only you have that - and since they've already made up their minds, nothing you can post here will change their view. Your time is better spent working than dealing with people like that!
Regards
33
So obviously rational yet it seems to escape some. I want just a dollar (due to inflation) from every every politician that didn't deliver on a promise to me. Once they all settle up I know I will be in a sufficiently strong financial position to negotiate the purchase of F4's source code. And then...
Sobriquet
03-04-2004, 21:22
* deleted *
gharper1
03-04-2004, 22:11
For those who are worried about being 'lied' to, please tell me of a computer game that you know of that was released on time?
Pac Man for the Atari 5200.
its been downhill ever since!
beat that! :drink: :-p :drink:
]
In the absence of more information, too many assumptions are being made. Why not sit back let the info and clarifications come as promised. This isnt Falcon anymore so why get our thongs too bunched up.
Wrong answer!
It is everytime your side which causes this kind of rush. Somebody in your rangs is coming up with rubbish like "hardcore sim in Q4 2004" - from scratch!!! Everybody -sane enough to count from 1 to 5- does know that this is [censored] impossible but never the less your lot is able to find some lunatic who is willing to put his name under such an announcement.
Mower, I know that you are a very talented guy and very involved with other big Falcon community projects. Since you have been convinced to join G2I they must have told you something. Now tell us what it is and prove the "community involvement" G2I is constantly talking about.
Nobody over there should be surprised that the tone in the upcoming discussions will be rough. You screwed up and have to live with the responsibility of your failure. Unless you cannot convince the people in the next 2-3 months that you this time know what you are doing the whole project is [censored].
Predator,
You might have missed one of my posts where I said we aren't starting from scratch.
We have an extensive codebase from which we will build our project.
"][quote=Mower]Mower, I know that you are a very talented guy .
Can you tell that to my wife please? heh. :mrgreen:
Here goes.....
Why create the website + hype if they were not ready to release information yet!
All these companies are starting too upset me, UBI, made the same mistakes with Lo-mac, showing all sorts of carrots and then pulling them away!
Here's some advice, forget about it, once it's in the stores I'll believe it! I'm sick of getting excited about nothing, it's a waste of my time!
I'm not gonna flame, get upset, rant or rave. I'm gonna watch, and play falcon SP4.
Long live Falcon, it may be old, but a least the bird still flies!
Cheers,
MK
Welcome to the forums
Could you tell me what games developers dont put up a website and forums in advance?
All the games coming out that i have seen have websites and forums dedicated to the game way in advance and alot of them also ask for suggestions that prospective customers would like in the game.
Hi Katz,
Thanks for the welcome,
The old saying goes "Just cause every-bodies doing it, doesn't make it right!"
I just think you guys got off on the wrong foot, I believe if you know the gaming community, and esp. the falcon community (which I think you are mainly targeting!), then you know that allot of them are pretty peeved off about this whole OIR thing.
So why start a page about this great new flight-sim thats better than falcon... saying that it's all about community involvement, please come ask questions etc etc, and then all the replies to any question that actually would put our minds at rest goes, "Well we can't talk about that yet! But hopefully soon, this is gonna be the next best thing, etc etc.
My opinion, though it may not mean much, Start a web page without forums! (Still gets everyone excited), then when ready, create the forums and invite people to ask questions! Then you won't have to run around looking stupid and dodging everyone!
I would love a new flight sim, I bought Lo-mac, it still sits on my shelf gathering dust. I got upset enough about that and the whole falcon 4 debacle to be wasting my energy getting excited about something, that for all we know my still be in the agreement signing process and ready to fall apart at any minute!
So I'm not holding my breath until it's on the shelf and even then I'll wait till I start seeing some rave reviews from guys I know. Then I'll buy into this whole thing!
Sorry if I come across as hostile!
Cheers,
MK
narphous
03-06-2004, 10:40
The old saying goes "Just cause every-bodies doing it, doesn't make it right!"
Yeah, but it would mean that everybody disagrees with you. It's just the way it's done.
So I'm not holding my breath until it's on the shelf and even then I'll wait till I start seeing some rave reviews from guys I know. Then I'll buy into this whole thing!
Probably the wisest idea, given your current position. If you stay skeptical but open, I don't think anyone will hold it against you.
Sorry if I come across as hostile!
Last I checked, they still have't outlawed having an opinion (though some are trying).
Hi Katz,
Thanks for the welcome,
The old saying goes "Just cause every-bodies doing it, doesn't make it right!"
I just think you guys got off on the wrong foot, I believe if you know the gaming community, and esp. the falcon community (which I think you are mainly targeting!), then you know that allot of them are pretty peeved off about this whole OIR thing.
So why start a page about this great new flight-sim thats better than falcon... saying that it's all about community involvement, please come ask questions etc etc, and then all the replies to any question that actually would put our minds at rest goes, "Well we can't talk about that yet! But hopefully soon, this is gonna be the next best thing, etc etc.
My opinion, though it may not mean much, Start a web page without forums! (Still gets everyone excited), then when ready, create the forums and invite people to ask questions! Then you won't have to run around looking stupid and dodging everyone!
I would love a new flight sim, I bought Lo-mac, it still sits on my shelf gathering dust. I got upset enough about that and the whole falcon 4 debacle to be wasting my energy getting excited about something, that for all we know my still be in the agreement signing process and ready to fall apart at any minute!
So I'm not holding my breath until it's on the shelf and even then I'll wait till I start seeing some rave reviews from guys I know. Then I'll buy into this whole thing!
Sorry if I come across as hostile!
Cheers,
MK
you didnt come across as hostile in fact you were very polite and differing opinions are welcome if they are posted politely :thumbsup:
Such negitivity! If Preditor is soo turned out by G2I, perhaps Preditor should'nt post up. Q4 is possible, if you have an army of graphic engineers! Say 3 or 4 hundred of them :shock: But let's be realistic. The FAQ stated a mission builder and some pre-made missions by Q4. That's possible! I think as time goes on, I only hope the negitivity goes with it. Smangs, what did Mark Twain say again? :D
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